Coach training update discussion

Gudrioji Lape:
We won't be able to offer compensations. So, if the community believes that this update should be delayed for more seasons or even postponed, please let us know. However, we've had a few postponed updates before, and almost nobody in the entire BasketPulse community changed how they play the game. So, I really doubt if it's a good idea to delay this update even more.

fanling3:
Do you think the ability to learn is the same for a 30-year-old and a 70-year-old person? In reality, a coaching career is much shorter compared to BasketPulse. While there are some older coaches in the world, they are more like exceptions. I reviewed Euroleague coaches, and the best achievements are usually collected in the mid-fifties. So, that's more or less the peak for coaches.

In BasketPulse, we can't increase coach training speed because their growing period is insanely long (it could even be 40 seasons of daily positive training). If we significantly reduce that, we could have the ability to grow coaches a bit faster. It doesn't make sense that you need almost 7 "human years" to develop a coach to their peak :) -- 96 S 19 d.

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Y 1 fanling3

Sounds reasonable to me. Any plan at what age the coach reaches his peak? -- 96 S 19 d.

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I noticed that some messages were hidden. Please stay on the topic. If you have a negative or positive opinion, please express them with arguments or at least point out what you don't like.

As we want to have the ability to learn something from these articles and comments, we will remove comments that do not give any value. -- 96 S 19 d.

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Aurimas,
Thank you for reminding us of this issue. Basically, some limits are not working correctly, and we need to review them. Firstly, we need to decide if we really need them and why exactly. Each restriction and limit is introduced into the game with a good reason. However, with time, these reasons might no longer be valid.

The player and coach count for team limits, I think, were introduced into the game before the minimum salary. So maybe the correct way is not to enforce them but to remove them?

Internally, we are having similar discussions about the still existing limit to create new franchise players based on division and a few other limits/restrictions that were introduced into the game ages ago. -- 96 S 19 d.

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Imagine Obradovic having Pablo Laso and Jasikevicius as assistant coaches. Makes total sense having best coaches in one team.. interesting why nobody has done it irl -- 96 S 19 d.

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Y 4 superdzonis

so all middle age coach who were trained long years will loose their value. Seems fair.
"It doesn't make sense that you need almost 7 "human years" to develop a coach to their peak :) "
to be honest this sounds funny what you needed 96 seasons to understand what (unless at the beginning of the game was different coach improvement system) :D -- 96 S 19 d.

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superdzonis,

Heyhoudini
So, what is your suggestion here? Should we completely close this idea or delay it for a longer period? If so, how long? -- 96 S 19 d.

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1.1 4.5 bananajohn

No delay needed, implement now and everyone will be happy. Why should couple users stop the progress many were asking? -- 96 S 20 d.

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1.1 1.1 史塔克

I'm confused about the skills of old coaches. You're like letting them retire early. Why do you do this? Before this season, everyone knows how difficult it is to have a good coach. Now there can be a 10-potential coach every day.) As you said, no matter which season the coaching system is updated, there will be opposition. Why? You said the reason, they spent 6-7 years training coaches in reality. -- 96 S 20 d.

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1.1 1.1 Gudrioji Lape

just think how to avoid the unfair. Maybe slower development for older coaches could be decreased very gradually? as lets say all new appearing coaches have very quick development in the beginning, smaller at later. Then old coaches would develop in old way at least for some time. Or maybe it could simply be improvement jumps for coaches. -- 96 S 20 d.

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@史塔克:
I did not say anything about "retiring early". This is more about how skill increasing/decreasing works.

Gudrioji Lape:
As training is very related to improvement jumps, I don't think that we can make it "gradually." Probably, we could postpone the skill decrease part more (as this does not affect peak RT).

Something like this:
* Younger coaches learn things more quickly.
* After their 50 years, their improvement decreases significantly (or even to zero based on the coach and all criteria).
* After 55, their skill starts to decrease (at first, at a minimum, and with age, more). This part can be postponed, let's say, for an additional 3 more seasons.

The exact "numbers" can be adjusted. That is just a first glance. -- 96 S 20 d.

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50 seems too early to peak? That's 20 seasons of regression before retirement -- 96 S 20 d.

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1.1 1.1 keepsmile

It doesn't make sense that you need almost 7 "human years" to develop a coach to their peak :)
yes,no one want to waste so much time to train a head coach,even i get 10 potential coach easy.so i agree to change the coach trainning system.what about the detail of coach 'jump' part update now? -- 96 S 20 d.

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Y 1 fourkings

GM:
First of all, I am a firm reformist, and I also believe that some content that is not in line with reality or unreasonable should be modified. But for a manager who has experienced many seasons, the current management team's changes to the game usually cause a huge shock to the game. Reform is not a Jesus creation process that can fix everything from mountains and rivers to what color underwear you wear in seven days.
Here I will give a very realistic example, I have a coach, with about 300,000 euros lottery, these 10 seasons, I have paid more salary for this coach. The coach's starting age is 38, this season it is 53, and his four tactical attributes have reached 11 points.
If you follow your game update plan, this coach for me, probably equivalent to 15 seasons, paying expensive salary and lottery fees. And after you changed his value by 90%, even buying him out is the best option. Below is a link to this coach.

https://www.basketpulse.com/cn/Coach/105299/description. I would like to ask GM, if this coach has worked at your club for 15 seasons, what is your attitude towards this coach now?
Let me reiterate that I am never against reform, but the loss is extremely hard to bear. I believe there are many other managers who face the same problem, as long as he has a long-term plan for his club. Think about how these managers feel now, having played by the rules of the game for years to develop a coach who is suddenly in negative equity.
Let me just emphasize one point: the compensation package. It would be irresponsible for the average manager to suffer at every change. -- 96 S 20 d.

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2.2 2.1 cyseric-bot

@ a-darius

https://www.basketpulse.com/tw/Player/2335354/description
I have a question: if I hire this old player who plan to retire at the end of this season, can I reconvert him to coach during playoffs or after the trading dradline (the 35th day)? -- 96 S 20 d.

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1.1 2.2 ak904

I suggest adding a feature that allows players to retire early when they reach 30 years old. Users can pay a compensation to players over 30 years old to allow them to retire early and become coaches. The level of compensation can be determined based on the player's skills. In this way, there is no need to worry about when players will retire, especially players whose skills have obviously declined but still do not retire. -- 96 S 20 d.

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1.1 1.1 superdzonis

Only for me it looks stupid that in the market you can offer any salary for player who will retire in the end of the season and make him coach and player salary dissapers... for me it looks like a flaw. I think team should pay atleast one week salary whick team offered in market. -- 96 S 20 d.

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1.1 1.1 TRX001

I suggest adding the function of spending credit points to train coaches, such as investing 10,000 credit points per week, you can train an 8-10 potential coach in a season, which can make the game run better -- 96 S 20 d.

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1.1 1.1 TRX001

Or improve the credit points needed to requalified coaches, which are now a bit cheap, 10 pot coaches are too easy to get now,maybe we can improve 4500credit to 100000? -- 96 S 20 d.

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a-darius kiek top lygio trenerių Eurolygoje eitų pas kitą top lygio trenerį asistentu dirbti?
Atnaujinimo reikia, bet kai keli klubai susipirks po n skaičių 10pot trenerių, kokia logika bus šito? Jasikevičiaus kiekviena Eurolygos komanda į asistentus norėtų. Vyr. Trenerio kėdė yra siekemybė, o asistentai labai dažnai būna išreikšti tam tikrų įgūdžių treneriai, kurie papildo vyr trenerį papildomom įžvalgom.

Atnaujinimo dėl trenerių reikėjo 30 sezonų atgal jau. -- 96 S 20 d.

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lunaro:
I agree that peaking at 50 is too soon. Perhaps we should consider a peak around ~55. I also believe the limit doesn't need to be strict for every case. I propose gradually reducing training each year, with some coaches receiving training points beyond 50 based on certain criteria. After a certain point, maybe around 55, some coaches could stop receiving training points. We could have a few seasons of a "freeze" before starting a decline (this part can be delayed further).

superdzonis,

TRX001:
Good points. We'll discuss these internally. Regarding faster training using credits, I think that might be too drastic.

ak904:
We aim to avoid increasing the "requalification" count. With almost 40 new coaches this season, we'll likely make some changes to reduce requalifications in the future. Please check suggestions from superdzonis and TRX011.

HeyHoudini:
I'm still unclear about your suggestion.

keepsmile:
Coaches' improvement jumps may work similarly to players, but the update will come after the training rewrite. It's too early to plan the details, especially considering that updates sometimes get delayed. As I have a full-time job, coach updates are handled by someone else, making it challenging to provide exact promises. -- 96 S 20 d.

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Kad komandos turėtų labai mažą kiekį top trenerių per komandą, o ne 5+ 10pot pagrindinėje ir dar n kiekis jaunime.
Tai ir pavyzdžiai yra, jog top lygio treneriai neina dirbti į asistentus.
Na arba kalam NCAA modelį, kur komandoje 15 žaidėjų, 10 gauna "stipendijas" (kompensuojamos algos), likę 5 patys susimoka, o trenerių štabą sudaro 22 asmenys -- 96 S 20 d.

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Okay, I see you're talking about coach limits, not training. It's a slightly different topic, but my idea is that there should be a good reason for restrictions and limits. If a team wants to have 40 coaches, it probably won't be a good team because it simply won't have money left for players. So, I'm not sure if there is a point to these limits.

When we introduced these limits, the game was entirely different. Over time, we created more ways to acquire new players and coaches, leading to limits that now only apply in certain situations.
I'm leaning towards removing these limits rather than embracing them. -- 96 S 20 d.

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2.2 3.2 smart0eddie

https://www.basketpulse.com/tw/Team/31880/roster
I'm not sure how many coaches are on his team
But he's definitely a strong team -- 96 S 20 d.

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1.1 2.2 ak904

I agree with limiting the number of coaches on a team. There are very few good coaches in the first place, and a few teams keep hoarding coaches, leaving other teams with less chance to get better coaches. -- 96 S 20 d.

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ak904, no limit needed, we see many irl top tier coaches in the world just signing contracts to be assistants for another top tier coach. (Sarcasm)
Also Darius said that hording all the best coaches just leaves these teams with NOT MUCH MONEY left for players... :)) Sadly in this game you cannot boost your finances to cover all the crazy salary a team would get.. -- 96 S 20 d.

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1.1 4.8 elprof

I'm not a fan of the skill decline at age 55 for the same reason I don't like the skill decline of players at age 30, it should depend on the individual. I understand it's probably easier to implement and regulate because it's a game, but having every single coach/player start declining at the exact same age still feels off to me.

Not to mention the human mind really doesn't deteriorate so easily. Older people learn less easily but they don't magically lose the mental skills they have, especially if they're using them every day. -- 96 S 20 d.

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1.1 1.1 nofixations

Gregg Popovic, Larry Brown, Phil Jackson,.... They surely started declining at 55... Weren't you looking for realism? ... I am fine with increasing training when younger. Not decreasing with age... There are other ways, get them decrease when fired/ when not playing.
An other thing, wasn't the plan to be able to trade coaches as well? -- 96 S 20 d.

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We'll discuss limiting the number of players/coaches internally, but I'm quite skeptical about it. Essentially, it means spending additional time supporting some limits just to restrict a few teams. I believe there are many other areas where our efforts could have a better impact on the game.

smart0eddie:
Your example is a good one. Perhaps the issue lies not in the limit itself but in the compensation question. However, that's another topic, so let's discuss it separately at some point.

elprof:
This is one of the reasons why I want to introduce a "special skills" feature in the game. We could include more diverse skills, with one of them being the ability to extend a career longer. But with the current skills, it's quite challenging to create entirely different players/coaches. Of course, we could add randomness, but that probably wouldn't be well-received by the community. -- 96 S 20 d.

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nofixations:
Come on, are you really suggesting that coaches can perform at the same level at 55 and 72? You highlighted a few of the oldest coaches in NBA history, but I don't believe we should shape the entire game based on a few exceptional individuals in history.
We should lean more towards "average" cases. Then, over time, we can consider including "extreme" cases with additional features such as "special skills," not the other way around. -- 96 S 20 d.

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1.1 1.1 nofixations

I can also name some ln Euroleague if you want.... Coaches are not like players - where physical condition gets indeed reduced. I can buy in to the fact that they can get their top level much younger - and then stop improving -but never reduce.
As how to translate to the game - i would simply get new coaches with new system and existing coaches with old system. This way the change will be progressive. -- 96 S 20 d.

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If you ask a 72-year-old person if their mind was sharper 10 years ago, most would likely agree. So, I can't agree with you that a person can coach at the same level when they are 55 and 72.
Let's agree to disagree this time. ;) -- 96 S 20 d.

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1.1 4.8 elprof

I like this idea of special skills and having one of the skills be something that extends the coach's peak/career. Should also be random enough without feeling unfair. No more comments from me in that case, I will make due until everything is finished. -- 96 S 21 d.

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https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/awards/by-type/Coach-of-the-Year/9001 Seems like coaches peak closer to 60 than 50 but they don't regress until close to 70? -- 96 S 21 d.

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1.1 4.8 elprof

lunaro The average age of all the coaches of the year is roughly 50 though. -- 96 S 21 d.

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I'm not sure how you concluded that the peak is closer to 60 and regression doesn't start until 70.

If I calculate the entire table, the "peak age" is even below 40. When I calculate the last 10 seasons, the peak age is around 54, which is more or less what I am thinking.

Determining regression is quite challenging. Many coaches likely retire a lot sooner, which is why we don't see many coaches aged 60-70.

I found another table that's a bit outdated:

https://weaksideawareness.wordpress.com/2011/11/24/average-nba-career-length-for-coaches-and-gms/

The point is that in BasketPulse, each coach can have an incredibly long career, while in reality, only a few can coach for that long. -- 96 S 21 d.

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2.2 2.2 coldmeow

a-darius Whatever changes you want to make, please keep the coaches who are still under contract now from being affected until the end of their contracts。 -- 96 S 21 d.

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I mean the NBA only expanded to 30 teams in 2004 the early data of 30-40 yr old head coaches winning it skew the data a bit since the league was different back in those days. But most of these top head coaches get 10-20+ years of head coaching in their careers which won't happen if you start regression early at 50-55... -- 96 S 21 d.

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" Many coaches likely retire a lot sooner, which is why we don't see many coaches aged 60-70." I mean 6 out of 30 head coaches in the NBA right now are 60+ I wouldn't say 20% is rare -- 96 S 21 d.

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In BasketPulse, almost every head coach in the top league is above 60, not just 20%. If we narrow it down to coaches above 68, the difference between RL and BasketPulse is even more significant.

I'm a bit surprised why people try to convince me that coaching at 68-70 is normal. It's not, actually. People mention Gregg Popovich, but I don't agree that he's as good as he was when younger. The team's results in the past 4-5 seasons are at the bottom of his entire career. -- 96 S 21 d.

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1.1 1.1 superdzonis

In my humble opinion not Popovich coaching abilities are main reason for bad results :D -- 96 S 21 d.

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superdzonis: As the club owner, would you prefer the current Popovich or his younger version? -- 96 S 21 d.

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coldmeow:
We won't be able to support two different training systems. It would increase the cost and complexity of such a feature too much. I see three options here:
1. Implement it as planned.
2. Delay it for a longer time.
3. Completely shut down the idea.

To reduce the impact, we can delay the "degradation part" for a few more seasons. -- 96 S 21 d.

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1.1 1.1 superdzonis

a-darius to be honest 50 or 70 yo Popovich nothing would change drastically (maybe few wins difference). Results mostly depends of how good roaster you have.
Most obvious example this year in NBA

https://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/willimo01c.html -- 96 S 21 d.

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Y 2 nofixations

How about being able to trade coaches as if they were players. Has this idea been forgotten? -- 96 S 21 d.

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4.2 4.4 Formatas

dariau, imam Eurolygą: Obradovič (Partizan) 63, Laso (Bayern) 56, Messina (Armani) 64, Ataman (Pao) 57, Itoudis (Fenerbakche) 57, Bartzokas (Olympiacos) 58, Scariolo (Virtus) 62, Mumbru (Valencia) 44, Grimau (Barcelona) 45, Maksvytis (Žalgiris) 46, Kattash (Maccabi) 49, Ivanovi (Baskonia) 66, Obradovič (Monaco) 54, Can (Efes) 43, Gonzales (Alba) 48, Pozzecco (Asvel) 51, Sfairopuol (Zvezda) 56, Mateo (Real) 54.

22% daugiau nei 60, 44% daugiau tarp 50-60, ir tik 34% vyresnis nei 40. 0% (!!!!!!!!!!) 30 metų ar jaunesnių. Buvusio žaidėjo vertimas ir iškart suteikimas trenerio žinių lyg jis 10-20 metų mokėsi iš vis būti treneriu yra visiška nesąmonė aukščiausiame lygyje. Tas pats Jasikevičius savo trenerio karjerą pradėjo būdamas 40 metų. -- 96 S 21 d.

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GM, what I want to say is that if there are changes to coach training, it is really unfair to coaches over 50 years old, and it is a catastrophic blow to many teams. Think about how we spent 20 seasons training a coach. When the coach was 55 years old, you suddenly told us that the coach had already passed his peak period. If you were me, how would you feel.
I would like to make a suggestion. Can you consider using new training methods for tactical coaches under the age of 50 until they retire. And tactical coaches over 50 years old still have old training until these old coaches retire. This does not affect the fairness of the game, nor does it have a significant impact on teams with older coaches. -- 96 S 34 d.

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YAOQINWEI Darius has stated it won't be possible to have 2 different training systems. So majority in higher leagues that have older than 55y/o coaches, who planned the training and hoped the coach peaked at age around 65, got really "lucky". -- 96 S 34 d.

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It has to be said that sometimes GM's decisions make us "customers" have a very bad experience, and even drive us crazy. Many people just left the game like this, I don't know how long I can hold on. -- 96 S 34 d.

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That's also why I don't want to spend too much money on this game anymore. Take a step and see. -- 96 S 34 d.

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I'm with you, brother -- 96 S 34 d.

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3.3 3.1 benislovas

Me too -- 96 S 35 d.

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2.1 3.1 Psubrat

I believe, that changes about coaches should not focus about how close to reality they are, if coaches looses their minds in age of 55 or so. This is not RL, it is a simple game. Keep in mind, that this change affects only GM who spend long years with this game. Real problem is, when a new GM come to play season or two and then leave because ME is strange and unpredictable. They dont care about multiseason/year process of coach development.
I am saying - make coaches more available, beacuse it is hard to get decent coach for WL4/5 for reasonable money. Perhaps this player requalification will do the job done. And forget about copying reality about ageing coaches and other not necessary stuff. If you must to do it, do it when all other things are fixed.
And take care about ME and tactics influence, beacuse this is a daily fun - prepare tactics against the opponent - at least it is for me. -- 96 S 36 d.

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1.1 2.2 Pianoschulz

Will you be so kind to share the results/graphics of the survey with the 2/3 of support to change system?
?
I still don't believe /understand necessarily /value of this update -- 96 S 45 d.

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2.2 2.2 dwyane3

When should the coaching training update be added to the game?
Count Answer
158 Initial plan - season 98
48 Delay until season 101
30 Do not update coaching system
11 Other

The problem with the coaching system has been stated in the previous announcement, you may find the link in the direct message. -- 96 S 45 d.

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2.1 1.1 mantas3223

Thanks. Amazing news... 10 seasons investment in coach who will become worthless... How many of that users who vote are actually active users and played atleast 5+ seasons? -- 96 S 45 d.

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2.2 2.2 dwyane3

All users that participated in the survey have recently supported the game by purchasing in-game credits.

This is not an easy decision and we stick with the opinion the majority of the voters. We also believe that the update will bring more excitement to the game in the long term for the entire BP community. -- 96 S 45 d.

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2.1 1.1 mantas3223

And what it has to do with users activity? :D Wow.... The update is needed and actually great, but a lot of users who invested in growing coaches and spent 2 or more real liife years should get a compensation. If two training systems cannot be made to work simutanously, what about giving discounts for new coach requalify? Or financial help. Now that coach I kept in my team for 10 seasons cost me more than 500k and becoming useless after the update. Thats not fair at all. Thats just my opinion, but something has to be done... -- 96 S 45 d.

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1.1 1.1 david1992

I would suggest that coaches who are currently in their 50's can get their coach's skills improvement jump in order to compensate for the new coach training system. -- 96 S 45 d.

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What I want to say is that even if it is true as GM said, two-thirds of people have agreed to the coach's new training plan. So I want to ask GM, have you considered the 20% of people you hurt? These 20% of people haven't done anything wrong, are they very innocent? Even this is a catastrophic blow for some teams, it's really speechless. -- 96 S 45 d.

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2.1 1.1 mantas3223

That would be a good solution, too. Agree 100%! -- 96 S 45 d.

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In your game, the influence of coaches is very significant. An excellent coach on the field is at least equivalent to two excellent players (because players in this game can only play for 20 minutes, coaches can play for 40 minutes). So, in order to have an excellent coach, I trained him for 23 seasons (the actual time is 3 years and 10 months), and now you tell me that he will be weakened, which is completely out of my plan. -- 96 S 45 d.

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May I ask what I did wrong? Is this fair to us teams with coaches aged 50-60? Do I have to spend money playing your game to make me feel so frustrated? -- 96 S 45 d.

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May I ask what I did wrong? Is this fair to us teams with coaches aged 50-60? Do I have to spend money playing your game to make me feel so frustrated? -- 96 S 45 d.

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GM, I want to ask you, should my 57 year old head coach be fired now? And spend 10000 credit points to buy a 32 year old coach? Even though the new training will be much faster, the coach's experience from 3 to 12 still takes 14 seasons. Do you think I still have the patience? Why do you think I still believe you? Why do I still want you to make my money? Can you consider my feelings? -- 96 S 45 d.

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1.1 1.1 史塔克

1/30 -- 96 S 45 d.

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4.4 4.5 PonasKukas

O ar kas paklausė ko mergaitė nori?!?!?!? -- 96 S 45 d.

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You want to change the coach's training, which is not a problem, but you cannot sacrifice the interests of some players to achieve your goal, which is really unfair. The main reason I play this game is fairness. -- 96 S 45 d.

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1.1 4.6 barbabodom

I get that assistant coach should improve based on head coach´s skill, as a mentor or something like that, but I don´t think training coaches improvement should also be based on that. Maybe something like the difference between the RT average of the players and the RT of the training coaches, something like that -- 96 S 45 d.

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1.1 2.1 fanling3

Just one random idea, if you don't have an attribute for born date of a coach, try adding 100k (or any necessary number) to the id for all coaches born beyond s98, then you can split the training logic into two groups by checking the coach id -- 96 S 45 d.

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Just get ready for a new wave of huge salaries for coaches that are in 45-55 age range to replace those 57+ as noone with brains will scout coaches till this update rolls out.
And then hope to scout quickly a coach so in a year (or two) of real time the coach would be ready to HC position -- 96 S 45 d.

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Show hidden replies: 79

The transition period going to be difficult for the majority with coaches that are 55+
But the bright side is that at least with the update it will not take 4-5 irl years for coach to be great -- 96 S 45 d.

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1.1 1.1 史塔克

GM's update logic is, "I have an idea that I think is great. Oh, that's great. There are also people who support me. Okay, that's it." Other players' feelings do not need to be ignored at all. If you like to play, stay and play. If not, you can go out. -- 96 S 46 d.

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